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Installing Canned Lighting Cans In Ceiling With Cramped Space

Discussion in 'Electrical And Lighting' started by Nifty, Sep 11, 2013.

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  1. Sep 25, 2013
    Nifty

    Nifty Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, I just had a realization: My computer fan makes more noise than the lights in my new office, and I don't ever think about my computer fan noise.

    So, out of principle it still really bothers me that the LED's make noise, but I'm realizing that I probably won't even notice it.

    I still have the option to uninstall them and return them, but I hate the thought of doing that.
     
    Nifty, Sep 25, 2013
    #21
  2. Sep 26, 2013
    HayZee518

    HayZee518 Member

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    the buzzing from a florescents come from the iron laminations of the ballast, which is a transformer. the iron laminations vibrate from something called eddy curernts. I have never taken apart a cfl or an led spot but I'm assuming there is a type of transformer inside that reduces the voltage and a bridge rectifier or half wave diode assembly to change the ac to dc to operate the bulbs. the voltage drop across an led is 1.2 volts.
     
    HayZee518, Sep 26, 2013
    #22
  3. Sep 26, 2013
    HayZee518

    HayZee518 Member

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    I tried to do some research on LED bulbs. #1 It satisfied my first suspisions that these things operate on DC power. Well, now I got AC going into them. How do they work? A diode is a semi-conductor that permits AC power to flow in one direction only. Given an AC waveform, during one half of the sine wave [positive going] the diode conducts. the other part - the part that goes below the zero line is cut off. What happens to this stuff. Simple it is given off as heat. So the next cycle it conducts, then cuts off and so on.... An LED bulb contains all of the components of a conventional diode with the exception that it has a lens to amplify the light produced. There's a load resistor that limits current so it doesn't burn out the instant power is applied. The electronics does contain a very small transformer diodes [regular ones] and some capacitors. The bulb actually runs on something called capacitive discharge. A capacitor is charged and as it gets to its threshold it discharges through the LED. Thats why the things flicker. That's why you have your noise or buzzing! The LED is turning on and off 120 times a second but barely visible to you. CFLs on the other hand are really compact florescents or long tubes coiled up to compact size and uses the same principle as regular long tube T-8 tubes. The enclosed electronics generate a high voltage to heat mercury to vaporise it so the tube conducts from one end to the other. The phosphor coating inside glows and this provides usable light.
     
    HayZee518, Sep 26, 2013
    #23
  4. Sep 26, 2013
    Nifty

    Nifty Administrator Staff Member

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    Very interesting info!

    What's odd is that I have many other LED bulbs that have standard sockets on them that I use throughout the house and they function perfectly well with no noticeable buzzing. I'm not sure why I get buzzing from these and not those.
     
    Nifty, Sep 26, 2013
    #24
  5. Sep 26, 2013
    Sumi

    Sumi Member Staff Member

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    That is strange... HayZee, what do you think?
     
    Sumi, Sep 26, 2013
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  6. Sep 27, 2013
    Pushkins

    Pushkins New Member

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    I have 17 LED can lights in my home not one of them "buzzes". Are these specific LED lights or standard recessed light fittings with LED bulbs ?
     
    Pushkins, Sep 27, 2013
    #26
  7. Sep 27, 2013
    HayZee518

    HayZee518 Member

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    Are your "other" brands the same bulb as used in the cans?
     
    HayZee518, Sep 27, 2013
    #27
  8. Sep 27, 2013
    HayZee518

    HayZee518 Member

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    I don't see why unless the magnetics produced by the internal transformer has something to do with the lamp's close proximity to the metal cans
     
    HayZee518, Sep 27, 2013
    #28
  9. Sep 28, 2013
    Nifty

    Nifty Administrator Staff Member

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    The cans, baffle, LEDs, etc. all came in one recessed LED kit here. They were all parts made to go together.

    I first thought it was the dimmer switch, but I removed it and tried just a on/off switch and they still buzz. Again, it's not super loud, but it is noticeable.

    I'm a tiny bit tempted to pull them out and install 5" cans and buy my own LED bulbs (that I already use in other fixtures) and put those in... but as I go down that path I end up saying, "Oh, it's not a big deal since it isn't that loud, my computer makes more noise than they do, and I'll have music on all the time anyway."

    On the plus side, I discovered that 3 cans in that room is PLENTY of light! :D
     
    Nifty, Sep 28, 2013
    #29
  10. Sep 28, 2013
    Sumi

    Sumi Member Staff Member

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    I'm just worried that the cause of the buzzing may be end up being something serious. I asked DH and he said the lights (LED) he fitted before only buzzed when they weren't installed 100% correctly, when something was lose and needing adjusting. Other than that I don't know.
     
    Sumi, Sep 28, 2013
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  11. Sep 28, 2013
    Nifty

    Nifty Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm not too worried about it being a safety issue. I pulled the lights out of the cans and housing and the buzz is definitely coming from the LED itself. I'm slightly tempted to unplug the unit and wire it up to a completely different circuit in the house... maybe one where I know I have LED's running fine and see if that makes a difference. That way I could really narrow it down 100% to the LED and nothing to do with the wiring / circuit. I could go to Home Depot and buy a different company's LED and see if that makes any difference.

    ... or just live with it as it is. ;)
     
    Nifty, Sep 28, 2013
    #30
  12. Sep 28, 2013
    Sumi

    Sumi Member Staff Member

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    Quote: "I'm slightly tempted to unplug the unit and wire it up to a completely different circuit in the house... maybe one where I know I have LED's running fine and see if that makes a difference. That way I could really narrow it down 100% to the LED and nothing to do with the wiring / circuit."

    That sounds like a good idea! I'm a firm believer of "better safe than sorry", especially when it comes to things like electricity!
     
    Sumi, Sep 28, 2013
    #30
  13. Sep 28, 2013
    HayZee518

    HayZee518 Member

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    Take one of your other led bulbs, the one(s) that don't buzz and put it into the can and see if IT buzzes. That way you can eliminate the cause of it.
     
    HayZee518, Sep 28, 2013
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  14. Sep 28, 2013
    Nifty

    Nifty Administrator Staff Member

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    It's a good idea, but the connector on the cans is made uniquely specific to the LED that came with it, so I unfortunately can't swap out another LED light in there... that definitely would have been the first thing I would have tried.
     
    Nifty, Sep 28, 2013
    #31
  15. Sep 28, 2013
    Nifty

    Nifty Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm heading to HD today and might pick up a few different cans to try out.
     
    Nifty, Sep 28, 2013
    #32
  16. Sep 28, 2013
    Sumi

    Sumi Member Staff Member

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    Great minds think alike? lol Pity you don't have such an easy way to troubleshoot the cause. DH and I talked about this today and he also mentioned electric currents/circuits being a possible issue? Heck I don't know. What a pain! I hope you can get it figured out today.
     
    Sumi, Sep 28, 2013
    #33
  17. Sep 29, 2013
    HayZee518

    HayZee518 Member

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    Seems odd to have to get a special bulb for a can. I'm sure a standard can would work with a screw in LED bulb.
     
    HayZee518, Sep 29, 2013
    #33
  18. Oct 2, 2013
    Nifty

    Nifty Administrator Staff Member

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    Ok, some updates on the canned / recessed lighting in my office:
    1. Fully installed the Lithonia 5" white baffle recessed kit LED from Home Depot ( model 213EER )
    2. All the units buzzed, even when wired directly to an outlet, bypassing the cans, etc.
    3. Went to Home Depot and purchased new 5" Halo recessed can removel housing & Halo retrofit baffle / trim LED ( model RL560WH-R ).
    4. Plugged this new LED directly into the wall... no buzz at all (video on it's way)
    5. Removed all Lithonia LED kits & housings
    6. Installed new Halo housing. NOTE: these didn't install easily at all. The clips didn't hold onto the sheetrock and kept unspringing. I ended up having to screw the springs into place as advised by their help desk. The Lithonia houseing was way nicer... to bad the LED's buzzed and it was a whole kit I had to return, or I would have stuck with the Lithonia housing and Halo bulbs
    Finally, NO BUZZING!

    The results:

    [​IMG]
     
    Nifty, Oct 2, 2013
    #33
  19. Oct 2, 2013
    Nifty

    Nifty Administrator Staff Member

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    Oh, I just noticed I only have 2/3 lights in that pic. One thing that is a huge relief: There is PLENTY of light in that room with those 3 cans!!
     
    Nifty, Oct 2, 2013
    #34
  20. Oct 3, 2013
    Sumi

    Sumi Member Staff Member

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    I'm glad you finally got it sorted! What a mission...
     
    Sumi, Oct 3, 2013
    #35
  21. Oct 3, 2013
    HayZee518

    HayZee518 Member

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    Be interesting to find out why those other fixtures buzz. This way if someone has a similar problem you can refer them to the "other" fixture.
     
    HayZee518, Oct 3, 2013
    #36
  22. Oct 3, 2013
    Nifty

    Nifty Administrator Staff Member

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    Fortunately since I put the model numbers of the light post that should really help people find them when they are doing searches online.
     
    Nifty, Oct 3, 2013
    #37
  23. Dec 17, 2013
    Nifty

    Nifty Administrator Staff Member

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    Happy to report I've been in my new office for a few months and the 3 LED canned lights are working great. Plenty bright for this space!

    Once in a while at my desk I feel I could use a tiny bit more light since my 2 big monitors shadow some of the light, but it hasn't been enough that I've really thought about getting a desk light... which is definitely an option.
     
    Nifty, Dec 17, 2013
    #38
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